WIRELESS GAMING MOUSE?

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Zargut
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WIRELESS GAMING MOUSE?

Post by Zargut »

Well my old trusty Logitech 510 (non gaming) wireless mouse doesn't seem to quite have the range since I move my computer to the other side of my desk. (long story short the fold out that held the printer broke so I had to relocate everything). But my old mouse doesn't seem to have quite enough range, I think its 3 feet. So I am looking at upgrading to a "gaming" mouse and have a couple questions:

Whats the difference? What would I gain by getting a gaming mouse?

Would one even notice the difference playing mostly eq?

What mice have better range? I see on amazon an older logitech MX is advertised as long range, and I could order one easily enough, but I'm not sure if its worth it since it is discontinued and has mixed reviews. I don't see other advertised as long range, maybe a newer one with blue tooth or something?

Probably going to stay with Logitech I have brand loyalty there but I'm open to suggestions. I'm thinking about hitting microcenter if I go out today, which I may need to for groceries.


Thanks!


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Re: WIRELESS GAMING MOUSE?

Post by Cantus »

Others may have better input for you, but for what it's worth, here are my thoughts. I know a couple things, but I'm definitely not an expert!
Zargut wrote:Whats the difference? What would I gain by getting a gaming mouse?
A "wireless gaming mouse" seems like a bit of a contradiction in terms to me.

For gaming, you want a good balance of three things - quick input response (low input lag - you move the mouse and there's a minimum of delay before the computer receives and processes your movement input), high samples per second (which allows for precise cursor positioning when you need it, among other advantages), and a comfortable mouse that can be moved around easily.


A wireless mouse definitely fails the first category compared to wired. The mouse itself has to detect the movement, encode it, transmit it, the receiver needs to receive it, and then queue the movement for the next USB port poll. The wireless transmission portion of it can add a little or a lot of input lag, depending on how well implemented the mouse hardware is. But it will always add at least some lag.

Not to mention that every wireless mouse I've seen uses a USB receiver. Real high-end, competitive gamers often swear by mice that use the old-school PS/2 connector.

The difference is that when you move a true PS/2 mouse, it generates an interrupt for the computer - which is pretty much what it sounds like... It interrupts what the computer is doing to shove in the input data. A PS/2 mouse doesn't store mouse movement data waiting for the computer to ask for it... it forces that data into the computer as quickly as you provide it by moving the mouse.

On the other hand, USB is polling-based. The USB mouse (whether wired or wireless) has to buffer mouse movements until the operating system gets around to checking in on the mouse to receive those inputs. Your mouse move message(s) could be sitting around waiting to be read for a couple milliseconds.

So PS/2 is proactive and USB is reactive. What real-world difference this makes is highly debatable, but I would guess it's fairly negligible. But I would also guess that adding the wireless transmission overhead to the USB polling overhead would start to become an issue for a high-end gamer.


Also, many wireless mice have relatively low-bandwidth wireless transmission equipment - meaning they are potentially more limited in the maximum samples per second that can be transmitted to the computer. This can in some situations cut back on your ability to quickly move the cursor from one side of the screen to another but then slow down and precisely aim the cursor where you want it.

While this is probably more of an issue for first person shooter games than EQ, it's still nice to be able to quickly but precisely select targets and click buttons in EQ (though I always advocate keyboard shortcuts wherever possible... though I often don't take my own advice and wind up using the mouse in EQ more than I should).


Even more than the added input lag and lower samples per second (which may or may not have a real-world impact), I am annoyed by the added weight of the wireless mouse (which has to have batteries, wireless transmission hardware, etc.), having to deal with intermittent operation when the batteries get low and then having to replace/charge them (often at the most inconvenient time - Murphy's Law!), and interruptions in control due to RF interference.

To maximize battery life, wireless mice often use minimal transmit power. Add to that the fact that a computer itself puts out a decent amount of RF interference and the receiver is often a USB "dongle" plugged into the back of the metal PC right by a bunch of wires (which can pick up and re-radiate all kinds of RF signals - both from the computer and ambient), and the signal-to-noise ratio (the strength of the desirable signal from the mouse compared to the "background noise" at the receiver) can be very low. Meaning that the receiver is often only barely able to pick up the signals above the noise floor.

I haven't looked into it, but I doubt many wireless mice (if any) are bi-directional (that is, the USB receiver is only a receiver and the mouse is only a transmitter), so the receiver can't request a re-transmission of a garbled movement transmission. Even if it could, that mouse movement packet is already "stale" by that point. So it's just discarded entirely. Meaning that while subsequent movements may be received and processed, the cursor could "jerk" a bit due to the lost packet(s) in the middle... leading to a loss of fine control in some situations.


Personally, I use a wired Logitech USB mouse because, well, I'm a dude in his 40s playing a MMO, not a lightning-fast 18-year-old playing twitchy and precise first person shooter games competitively. I doubt that I'd be capable of reacting quickly enough to take advantage of the theoretically more responsive wired PS/2 mouse. But I personally wouldn't use a wireless mouse.

I get that many people use wireless mice - including for gaming - and are perfectly happy with them. The lag, lower sample rate, and lost movement packet info are probably non-issues in all but competitive, twitchy gaming. It's the annoyance of battery replacements/recharges and the added weight of the mouse (some prefer a heavier mouse - I like it light so that I can quickly flick it around) that really kill it for me.


Zargut wrote:Would one even notice the difference playing mostly eq?
Between a "gaming" wireless mouse and a regular wireless mouse? Possibly? I'd imagine there could be a lot (relatively speaking) of input lag and samples-per-second difference in different wireless mice due in large part to the quality and suitability of the wireless transmission hardware that's integrated.

But I think it'd be fair to say that the cheapest optical PS/2 mouse is going to out-perform the highest end gaming wireless mouse in terms of input lag.

If you care about having a high-performance "gaming" mouse, based on what little I know, I'd say don't get a wireless mouse.

If you love wireless mice, are annoyed by the cord of a wired mouse, or your computer desk setup for some reason won't accommodate a wired mouse, by all means get a wireless one!

But in my uneducated opinion, I'd recommend one that seems like it'd be comfortable in your hand over one that claims to be a "gaming" mouse. I suspect you'd notice the benefit of a more ergonomic mouse over one with a couple millisecond faster input lag or faster sampling rate. But, again, I'm definitely not an expert. I'm perfectly happy with my low-end Logitech wired USB mouse.


One thing I can confidently say is that you'd have to be a massochist to play EQ with a trackball... Rapitiss!
Last edited by Cantus on Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:32 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Rapitiss »

I am a big fan of the logitech m570 thumb trackball. I have RSI in the wrist when I use a normal mouse for more than a couple hours and found the thumb ball to work very well.

The m570 has good range but they use some really cheap micro switches so they tend to start to go bad anywhere from 6 m - 2 yrs. The previous generation had rocking switches and lasted like 5yr+.

I just went to micro center and picked up a https://www.microcenter.com/product/602 ... -trackball

I haven't plugged it in yet so can't give review yet.
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Re: WIRELESS GAMING MOUSE?

Post by Cantus »

Cantus wrote:One thing I can confidently say is that you'd have to be a massochist to play EQ with a trackball... Rapitiss!
I said this before Rapi posted to say he uses a trackball to avoid RSI pain. So I guess he uses one because he's the OPPOSITE of a massochist ;-).

I still can't imagine playing EQ with a trackball. All the more power to him for playing at the level he does even with one!
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Post by Vividia »

I am certainly no expert, just an old lady playin eq.

I vastly prefer a wired mouse for all the reasons so well stated above. Nothing makes me crazier that lag in a machine.

I don't like the trackball due to arthritis that has settled into the old mouse hand after decades of 10-keying.

For years the "standard" as far as i was concerned was the Logitech MX518 gaming mouse. I used it on several computers, so did Burkeena. Not sure what Burkx used or uses, his gaming area is more like Area 51 about to launch the Jupiter 2.

Over the years, the MX518 was discontinued, and my copies finally went to the great mouse graveyard in the sky after giving something like a decade of service.

I have a G500s,which is interesting because it has little weights that you can put in it to "balance" it properly. Not sure whether the weights make a difference, how can something laying flat need balancing? Anyway, the weights came in a little tin that i found useful :) THe G500s is a very nice mouse, great response, fits my hand very well, and I do like it, but it isn't the MX518. This was rather on the expensive side for a mouse, but i was looking for something that had a form factor like the MX518 and this came close. Lots of buttons that can be programmed, but that may or may not be on your list of requirements.

On another computer i have the G400s. No little weights on this one, so no little tin. It does the job and is quite servicable. No complaints other than I do like the form factor of the G500S better, it has a little "shelf" for my thumb that is very comfortable while the G400s has more of an indentation than a shelf.

Recently, Logitech re-released the MX518. It also has the little thumb shelf. It's like an old friend came back for a visit. It is relatively inexpensive, and has variable speed. Be sure if you go for this one you get the one with 16,000 dpi. There may be some "new old stock" out there with the now very old specs. Great response and nice form factor, too. Big thanks to Burkeena for sending it to me :)

I may be making too much of a deal about form factor and thumb shelves, but it does make a difference in the comfort for my arthritic hand.

So for what it's worth, my two cents from my own experience.
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Post by Zargut »

Excellent input everyone and thank you. I didn't get any feedback about bluetooth but its still wireless so it would have all the same drawbacks. I had thought about using a usb cable to extend the receiver location to where it would work better, and I may yet try that. I never had any issue I was aware of with the 510, its been a real trooper. I wonder if a corded mouse would have a long enough cord, I would need about 6-7 feet. The trackball is a non starter for me, 2 years ago I lost half my right thumb to cancer. As far as weight goes Ive never compared it to a corded mouse but now that I am thinking about weight it is rather hefty with the 2 AA batteries. I'll check out the 518 it sounds about perfect. The one I was looking at as "long range" was this: https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Anywher ... ics&sr=1-1

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Post by Cantus »

Zargut wrote:I didn't get any feedback about bluetooth but its still wireless so it would have all the same drawbacks.
Now that you mention it, I lied when I said I didn't have any wireless mice. I do have a Microsoft Bluetooth travel mouse that I like a lot... but I only used it for business apps, not gaming.

I would guess (but I am not confident in saying) that a Bluetooth mouse could be even worse in terms of latency compared to a wireless mouse and receiver pair that uses some proprietary signaling method.

My reasoning is that the Bluetooth protocol was probably built to be resilient and multi-purpose. There's probably a lot more overhead involved in a Bluetooth mouse (using the same protocol/stack that could be used for music, GPS, file transfer, etc.) compared to a super basic system where the mouse transmits a couple bytes representing the (X,Y) coordinate change from the last transmission to a basic receiver built to expect those super simple data packets.

I'm a Ham Radio geek, and there are intentionally simple, purpose-built, lean-and-mean protocols designed for sending data over two-way radios that can achieve decent speeds (considering that it's going over a low-bandwidth voice channel) like 2,400 - 9,600 bps.

That's usable for communicating via text live (think oldschool modem BBSes!) or sending text-based emails at a reasonable speed. But if you use one of the protocols that lets you send the same kind of TCP/IP packets used on the Internet (that can carry any kind of data) over the same two-way radio and try to do a similar text-based chat, it's PAINFULLY slow in comparison. That's because of all of the overhead associated with a more multi-purpose and resilient protocol like TCP.

I bet this would be similar to a comparison between a purpose-built, no-frills communication protocol for a wireless mouse and receiver combo when compared to a wireless mouse using the fancier, multi-purpose Bluetooth protocol.


Zargut wrote:I had thought about using a usb cable to extend the receiver location to where it would work better, and I may yet try that.
I don't use it often, because I'm very much a mouse-and-keyboard gamer, but I have a USB extension cable that I connect the receiver for my wireless Steam gamepad to. Allows me to get the receiver away from my rack full of computers and closer to where I (very rarely) use the controller. Other than my embarrassingly bad ability to game using a gamepad, I haven't had any complaints!


Zargut wrote:I wonder if a corded mouse would have a long enough cord, I would need about 6-7 feet.
If a wired mouse's cord isn't quite long enough for you, you can definitely use a USB extension cable.

"Officially", USB is limited to a maximum overall length of 16.4 feet. That is, if your mouse had a 6' cord, you technically shouldn't use it with anything longer than a 10' USB extension cord. But in a pinch I've coupled two 15' passive USB extension cords together (30' total) and it's worked fine. Though your mileage may vary based on the quality of the USB chipset, the cables themselves, and how much power the USB device requires.

There are also "active" USB extension cables that can exceed these limits, as well as "dongles" you can use to extend USB long distances using (for example) Cat6 Ethernet cables. But I doubt any of that is necessary for your desk setup. Probably a 6-10' passive USB extension cable like this would do the job nicely - either for extending a wireless mouse receiver dongle to a better location closer to your mouse location, or for extending a wired mouse's cord.


Zargut wrote:The trackball is a non starter for me, 2 years ago I lost half my right thumb to cancer. As far as weight goes Ive never compared it to a corded mouse but now that I am thinking about weight it is rather hefty with the 2 AA batteries.
Sorry to hear about your thumb! Like you and Vividia, I don't think I could do a trackball. Kinda wish I could... seems like, in theory, you could have faster cursor movements because you're moving less mass around. More power to Rap for being able to use one so well.

Vividia's mention of the mouse with weights reminded me that I had one like that, too. I want to say it was a Logitech as well. Had a little rectangular "cartridge" with circular cutouts for weights that came in a nice little tin, and you slide it up into the bottom of the mouse at an angle. I tried it out with different weights, but decided that I really liked it best with no weights at all. I even removed the little plastic "caddy". May be the exact same model that Vividia mentioned. I liked that mouse. No clue what happened to it...

But yeah, like I said, I personally prefer a lighter weight mouse. But the biggest reason I have such hatred towards wireless mice is knowing that I'd be in the middle of a raid or something, the batteries would die, and I'd realize that I'd run out of spare batteries. First world problems, I know!
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Post by Alsmack »

For a simple anecdotal answer: I use a Logitech G602 wireless "gaming" mouse, even for first person shooters. I've had zero problems with input lag. Runs on AA batteries that last for months with many hours of use a day.

Cantus' novel is accurate, but in the end input devices come down to personal preference for the most part. At least until you get into hyper competitive gaming where things like minute changes in input delay matter. For EQ, you could write a letter and send it USPS to tell your mouse to move, you'd probably still be fine.
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Post by Zargut »

I was looking at the G603, I like the way it fits my hand.
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Post by Cantus »

Zargut wrote:I was looking at the G603, I like the way it fits my hand.
Logitech has some interesting tech specs on that mouse.

Looks like there are three wireless sample transmission rates: HI, LOW, and Bluetooth:

• LIGHTSPEED Wireless report rate in HI mode: 1000 Hz (1 ms)
• Wireless report rate in LO mode: 125 Hz (8 ms)
• Bluetooth® report rate: 88-133 Hz (7.5-11.25 ms)


1,000 samples per second in HI mode seems like more than enough for anyone! It does have an impact on battery life, though.

The low end of the Bluetooth range (88 samples per second) possibly could be noticed by (and annoy) some competitive FPS kiddo.


Vividia recommended a dpi of 16,000. This mouse lists 12,000. Honestly, I'm not sure exactly what difference that'd make.

Like I said, I know next to nothing about wireless mice. But that one looks pretty slick. Much better sampling rate than I would have expected.
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Post by Zargut »

The battery life is 500 hours on high gaming. That’s really not bad and I already have rechargeable AA batteries. It also comes with an extension cable for the receiver. I think I’m going to get it tomorrow.
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Post by Rapitiss »

I think you can go crazy on the specs.

Human reaction time is typically measured between 150-250 ms depending on the task.

Most old school LCD panels are locked at 60hz = 16 ms.

Input lag of a couple MS is going to be swapped by these other factors.

UNLESS you are in the top 1% of the human population AND been training for twitch style input ... its just not going to matter.

While technically true, the simple wired PS mouse is faster and the 16000 DPI mouse has so much higher resolution ... it just isn't going to matter because you are most likely going to end up having to tweak your windows mouse speed down.

FYI - I fired up the new wireless trackball and its got crazy fast sampling ( which means it integrates over less time and is more noisy ) and crazy high precision ( which means little twitches or tremors get translated into movements ) so I ended up turning acceleration values down until it responded similarly to what I was used to.

I expect you'd end up doing the same.
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Post by Vividia »

Actually, i wasn't specifically recommending 16,000 dpi as such. I was pointing out that the 16,000 is the spec on the "new" MX518. The main thing is variable speed so you can choose what works best for you. Oh, and a thumb shelf, too.

I think the old one that was discontinued several years ago was something like 1800! It's kind of like microwave ovens, when they first came out decades ago we thought WOW these things are fast. Now we get annoyed at having to wait 2 minutes for our dinner to cook.

Modern times.....
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Post by Vividia »

Oh, and one more thing about wired v wireless.

When my cats get to playing around the computer, they knock the mouse off the desk and play with it. iI it's wired i can at least follow the wire to find it. Wireless, kinda iffy. My computer area is very cluttered!
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Post by Brianne »

Lol gotta love cats , they can hide anything :)
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